MADISON: Here at ‘Our Daily Bread,’ we try to keep you all laughing by talking about pop culture topics and current happenings that make people feel good or think differently about a topic. But this week, we are tasked, like many other creatives, with addressing the events that have transpired in the last week in America. But instead of forcing it, and trying to reach some profound conclusion or solution, Bri and I are going to have a conversation. On May 25, 2020, George Floyd lost his life following an arrest gone wrong with the Minneapolis Police Department. I have chosen to keep the officers involved nameless, because they don’t even deserve to be identified. Under the crushing and suffocating pressure of the officer’s knee, another Black man lost his breath and his life in front of cameras and bystanding officers who did nothing to act in his defense. But now... what do we do? How do we respond?
For some Americans, particularly Black Americans who are angry, tired, and hurt by these acts of violence against Breonna Taylor or Ahmaud Arbery, protesting and courageously taking to the streets to have their voices heard is their way of demanding change. But how do we navigate our individual responses? How do we respond publicly? Or privately?
As a woman of color, it’s tough to have conversations with white people who are unwilling or unable to discuss the realities about the systemic oppression that Black Americans and Americans of color experience every day. But hopefully, this conversation between two friends -- one white, and one Black + Native American -- can show people that tough conversations can be fueled by love.
BRI: As a white woman, I feel my responsibility now is to listen, to learn, and to discuss issues of race in this country with my friends of color AND my white friends. I’m thankful for Hamm and for this opportunity to have a real discussion on an incredibly nuanced and difficult topic that has plagued our country since its inception. With that, I feel as though I am a progressive person. I don’t consider anyone in my immediate circle to be a racist, and I KNOW that I and other white people who also feel “progressive” are doing things, saying things, and thinking things that are in ways contributing to the narratives about people of color which in turn perpetuate racism. Are there moments in your life, such as attending a predominantly white institution like Wake Forest University, when you think white people don’t realize that what they are doing that is actually incredibly racist and harmful? I’m sure there are many.
MADISON: First, I think you make an interesting point, because I, too, feel an incredible amount of responsibility to continue learning about ways to discuss racism in this country. To be quite honest, I’m not very good at it. It’s tough to try to explain things to people without coming across as condescending. But I get so upset, because some people NEED to be schooled! Because yes, we might be able to sit back and think that our close friends or even relatives aren’t racist. However, they are still reaping the benefits of a racist society even if they aren’t overt members of the KKK or other racist organizations. Even as a person of color, I have been afforded a ton of privilege in my life, and I have never personally felt like my race has hindered me from opportunities to continue advancing. But that doesn’t mean I have not experienced micro-aggressions or racial biases in my personal relationships or friendships with other people. While attending Wake -- a PWI -- I experienced a large range of situations that made me incredibly uncomfortable and “othered,” for the first time in my life. I never thought I would be in a place where I would go to a party, and literally be the only woman of color in the entire room. It instantly feels like the world around you is so small and you’re seen with this outward characteristic, rather than as a person. For me personally, it feels like white people don’t know how to have conversations about race because they’ve never been forced to have those conversations in their lives. It doesn’t affect them. Using the correct words and phrases is not important to them. And then to have someone turn around and label you as a social justice warrior or insinuate that you are an angry Black woman makes me...well, angry! So in my own experiences, it’s frustrating to feel responsible for others’ racial awareness, or to serve as a “spokesperson,” for all-matters Black. It’s not a person of color’s job to do the leg work for white people while simultaneously experiencing oppression. I have also seen white people use words and phrases that are comfortable and natural for them, but at the end of the day, are really racist or at least racially biased. During your time at Wake, did you ever feel like you could have spoken out against something one of your friends said?
BRI: Well there are a number of things that come to mind when I think about race and Wake because it's a serious problem there. I did once have a friend tell me that “black people don’t have it any worse than white people in this country because there are no laws that cause their lives to be worse.” I was of course outraged at this statement and told him that it was factually inaccurate, but I wish that I had done more to educate this guy and to continue the conversation. The dangerous part is that this guy was not someone I would have considered racist, but is someone who clearly was not aware of everything going on in the world and the experiences of people of color in this country. Generally, I would say I heard people say racist or racially biased things a number of times over the years and I wish instead of just getting mad and telling them what they said was fucked up I took the time to learn with them and to make a lasting effort to become more aware of racism and all the various ways it manifests itself in our country.
Something that has always stuck with me was an experience I had in high school. It was in my AP English class and we were reading Huck Finn. We were having a discussion led by our teacher about whether or not we thought it was okay for us - a predominantly white class - to say the “n-word” when it appeared in the novel. We then proceeded to have a formal debate on whether or not it was okay for white people to say the “n-word” casually if black people do. The class was told to go to the side of the room they were in favor of - okay to say or not okay to say. I was one of a handful of students who said it was not okay. The only black student in the class was on the side of not okay. And as shocking as I think that day was and as much as it has sat with me, I can’t imagine what that girl thought of that day. Being the only black student in a predominantly white class and predominantly white school in Savannah, Georgia and having the white students in her class argue with her over why it was okay for them to say the “n-word” casually. And what’s worse is the teacher seemed to think this was a fantastic lesson plan.
MADISON: Honestly, her experiences aren’t surprising. I, too, have had teachers and professors explain that they will use the ‘N’ word while reading sections of old books -- including works by James Baldwin (a GOAT). I’ve had friends that have used the ‘N’ word to make references to funny videos or movies and expect me to laugh along with the punchline. And to be honest, I want that word to die. Even as a person of color, I don’t feel the need to use the word. The history of that word lies in oppression and indescribable hatred, and I have no desire to carry the weight of that word to finish the lyrics in a song or reference a Vine. But the environments that I’ve been surrounded in, predominantly filled with white people, have not given me the support to speak out against the casual use of the word. I feel like I can lead by example and not perpetuate language of hate, but it’s not enough. For example, I had an experience with a faculty member, who I respect and admire very much. They have done so much for me and have always supported me and rooted for me. But one time, we were having a conversation, and they made a reference to “colored people.” This is interesting, because I think a lot of people feel like saying “colored” is really the correct phrasing, because you’re not calling someone the “N” word. But the phrase colored was used to segregate entire races and groups of people based on skin color. So yeah, as you can imagine, that word struck a chord with me. I know that they didn’t mean anything bad by it, but I didn’t say anything or correct them. I didn’t do enough, and I think about it a lot. I don’t feel like my response to when someone says, “nigga” or “colored” or when George Floyd is murdered is ENOUGH. Why do I feel so helpless?
BRI: I can’t answer that question because it is so profound and I'm sure it's the feeling many Black people have right now and have always had. To add to what you’re saying about perpetuating hate language: From my limited knowledge, the general idea behind people of color using the “n-word” and incorporating it into black culture was to take away its power. It unfortunately seemed to take away its power in a way that makes white people comfortable with saying it but it did not take the power out of racists. It did not erase racism. In fact it feels like it has added to the problem in a lot of ways which has been an unfortunate backfiring of a movement and idea that was intended to be empowering to the black community and to people of color. What I keep wondering to myself is how white people don’t see what is going on and see how much of a problem it is? The most dramatic thing that can happen in human life is happening - people are being murdered. How is that not enough to wake people up who may not be overtly racist but are asleep when it comes to issues of race?
MADISON: I think you’re right about the N-word being a source of power for white supremacy. However, I know not all Black people do not share these feelings as me about killing the word. For them, they feel that being able to use the word is a way of reclaiming it from the white supremacists and a racist society that prescribed their families with a label based on a slave to master relationship for generations.
Recently on social media, a new trend has surfaced targeting those who attempt to remain neutral. ‘To remain “neutral,” is to side with the oppressor’. People who are unwilling to have tough conversations have the privilege to remain comfortable with things exactly the way they are. Their brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers do not experience the levels of police brutality or systemic oppression the way that Black people in America experience. I think there are always negative connotations with progressive movements that are associated with extremists. People don’t want to be seen as taking a stance in order to save face politically or socially, but really all they’re doing is telling their fellow Americans, and their friends of color, that their lives are not important enough to stand up and fight for. And that’s sad. It makes me think about my friends. They might not see me as inferior in an extremist, KKK sort of way, but do they feel like they have to treat me differently and how they carry themselves because I am a person of color? I mean...probably. And that sucks, too. There are people who I consider close friends, and to be honest, I’m probably one of the only Black friends who they have had in their entire lives. And not just a friend in a class or on a team, but a real friend. Do you think that it’s tough to have meaningful and close relationships with people of color or Black people because of an underlying layer of race? I mean obviously not between us, because we’re good friends, but in other relationships?
BRI: I don’t think it's been tough for me to have close relationships with people of color in my life, BUT I will say I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that many of my friends of color were teammates of mine - which has always been a bond that I have found to supersede almost any other bond I’ve ever had with people. I have reflected on the last few days over how few black friends I have. I’ve grown up in predominantly white environments between going to a private school in Savannah, GA, playing club soccer - which unfortunately is a predominantly white space in the US, and Wake Forest which like we spoke about is a predominantly white institution. I find myself grappling with this idea of wanting to diversify the people I spend time with and not wanting to “search for black friends” because that seems weird and creepy. I want to make an effort to put myself in more diverse environments and meet people of different backgrounds as that is not something I had much exposure to throughout my childhood and college years because of the schools I went to. That’s not to say that I couldn’t have made more of an effort to do so while at Wake. I think it’s crucially important for white people to have more people of color in their life, but what do you think of this idea that I was just talking about of white people “looking for black friends” or finding a “token black friend?”
"I want to make an effort to put myself in more diverse environments and meet people of different backgrounds..."
MADISON: This question folds back into some things we have mentioned before. I think that there are well-intentioned white people who have goodness in them and want to help, but come across as so tone-deaf that their actions prove how much white people just don’t get it. The same goes for people who have friends of color and Black friends or Black spouses and partners or Black children and think that excuses their behavior. I think about when Get Out came out a couple of years ago, and suddenly everyone was SOOOOOO woke. And it was almost embarrassing! Being woke is about taking the time to educate yourself out of a desire to understand experiences outside of your own, because you have the capacity to...wait for it...CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.
I feel like some people feel that if they post things on Twitter and Instagram, they are immediately standing in solidarity with Black people and people of color. And yes, I know I said earlier that remaining neutral is a terrible option, but sometimes posing for social media is worse because you want to portray yourself one way, yet your actions fall short. I asked a friend how she thought white people could support Black people and movements. And she said, “[Rather than seeking black friends] just attend events that include more diversity, join clubs, and step outside of your comfort zone. Just be genuine. Just be genuinely nice and kind to people.” Her thoughts made me think more about social media, where people tend to not be authentic versions of themselves. So in a space where people are filtered and fake, how are you supposed to come across as genuine in support of total racial equality?
How have the events of the past couple of months impacted your use of social media? I get upset when I see some people post things in solidarity for social movements, because I know their actions don’t line up. For me, sometimes it’s so upsetting when I’m scrolling through my feed and I realize how desensitized I’m becoming to a new name trending every week. I immediately am disgusted with myself, because these are human beings with family and friends, dying when they don’t have to. Anyway, the question is somewhere in that rant.
BRI: I’ve been thinking about social media a lot and I think your question has a few components to it. I agree that I feel desensitized to a lot of what is being posted because it's sadly so damn common and like you said happens weekly. It's tricky because we can’t NOT post about it because these stories need to be told. In terms of people posting about it and in particular white people posting about it I’ve noticed a few things. I think a lot of people are like “great, I posted “justice for George Floyd” on my instagram story and I’m done. I’m an ACTIVIST and an ALLY!!!!!” But the reality is no that’s literally the easiest fucking thing you could do. I’m happy to see a lot of people, in response to George Floyd, are showing what books they are reading or podcasts they are listening to that discuss racism to show others what they can do to learn about these issues and educate themselves. I think one issue is that it's cool to be woke these days and because of that I think many white people are posting out of self interest and this is where I want people who do post to take a step further and do something like start a book club among white friends where you read Audre Lorde’s “Sister Outsider” and discuss her essays. There is so much that can be done it's just a matter of people making an effort and taking responsibility.
MADISON: I love that you bring this up, because one thing that happens with social movements and protests, is that white people’s actions get the spotlight and the praise, while Black efforts and experiences are minimized. A lot of people think that because they are allies and advocates, then their experiences are the same as the minorities’ of this country. That is not, and never will be, true. It’s not about feeling bad for what’s happening in this country. No one wants your pity. People want change. Real, tangible change, where people sympathize and rally behind the experiences of others, not for themselves or an image, but simply because it’s the right thing to do. But how do we get there? I recently had someone respond to one of my own reposts on Instagram saying: what is there we can do? This follower is Black, but it’s true. What can we actually do? There are those who protest, but as we’re seeing, sometimes these protests get polluted by toxic manipulation. I haven’t gone to a protest, but I’m trying to think of ways to help as a person of color. The problem seems so big. How do you fix a country’s history-worth of racial inequality? I have no answers to these rhetorical questions because it’s so vast and overwhelming. Do you think protests work?
BRI: Protests are complicated because when peaceful they have proven to be effective - but like you are saying they are getting manipulated and turned into something they did not intend to be. I will say, there have been a lot of instances of police killing black men and women and this is the first time in my life time that I have seen protesting this aggressive and this expansive and it has taken the full news narrative away from the craziest thing to happen in a long time which is a freaking GLOBAL PANDEMIC. So for people who are saying the riots aren’t necessary, maybe they don’t need to get so violent but you can’t argue the fact that they are grabbing everyone’s attention. My concern is that when this calms down, as it inevitably will, that white people will just fall back into their normal lives and conversations like this will stop. And then it’ll take another killing, and another, and another, to keep the conversation alive which is horrifying and fucked up. It is our responsibility to keep talking and keep learning because the road to equality is a slow and long one. The civil rights movement was 60 years ago. 60. We should be much farther along than we are right now so all we can do is make the effort to create positive change and to learn how we can do that in our daily lives and commit to doing that as often as we can.
MADISON: I feel like now is when I get more cynical and sad. One of the reasons it seems like these protests are so prominent might be because you’re seeing it with open eyes. I think about the protests in Ferguson back in 2014, and I was thinking at the time, like, wow this HAS to be the worst it’s going to get, right? But then the next month another name was trending everywhere. And since then, I've become less naive and more understanding of the fact that Black people and many people of color are forced to endure, while those who benefit from a racist society, are granted permission to live.
I have so many things to say, but the two of us could talk ourselves in circles forever. A family friend of mine, who is basically like my uncle, wrote a very passionate and heartfelt text to my mom, sister and me this morning. He has had family members who were police officers, but as a Black man what is he supposed to tell his son when he watches the news? He is one of the most positive people I have ever met in my life, and he chooses to live his life with love. But he put it so well by saying, “ We’re one species called humans. We’re allegedly the smartest inhabitants on earth, but we repeatedly conduct ourselves in despicable ways. It’s flat out wrong and inexcusable. I hold on to the fact that there are more kind people out here than evil ones.”
I guess in all of my hopelessness, I choose to lead my life with passion and love. I can be angry and upset and even act out violently, but for me, we have to all do better. We have to educate others and donate money to organizations such as Campaign Zero. However, those who are in positions of privilege and power need to ask how to BE better, too. I don’t have the solutions, but I know that I stand to continue fighting to create a voice for those like George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Atatiana Jefferson, Eric Garner, Sandra Bland, Breonna Taylor and all of those who are now and will continue to be voiceless.
All photos by Color of Change
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