BRI: Here at ‘Our Daily Bread’ we want to emphasize that the issues of race that are on the top of our nation’s mind right now are not going to go away when the news coverage shifts to something else - as it inevitably will. We want to keep the conversation alive with each other and with you all. That’s why we are diving back into another conversation that we hope serves as a starting point for more conversations between us and between you, the reader, the listener, the observer, our friends! Because who else is reading this? Hi mom!
This week we are going to discuss white privilege and systemic racism. Two massive topics that have been largely ignored, particularly in the white community, up until recently. Madison, what does the phrase “white privilege” mean to you and how are you seeing it in our world today?
MADISON: These are both such big topics, so I want to start by disclaiming that we’re only going to be able to barely scratch the surface of white privilege and how that contributes to systemic racism without going off the deep end. This past week I have engaged in various discussions with friends, peers, and groups about our emotional responses to all of the protests that occurred nationwide this week. And all of these discussions have been honest from Black and Brown people about their experiences with racism and grappling with their race. However, sometimes I think that when white people enter these discussions there is a certain tension because white people don’t want to come across as performative, but also want to understand how they have benefitted from a racist country.
I don’t think that I can pinpoint an exact “definition,” of white privilege because it’s such a lived experience that is very nuanced and shows itself in many different ways. In a very elementary nutshell, white privilege is the fact that white people experience certain liberties and benefits -- political, economic and social -- that are not always granted or available to Black and Brown people. However, it’s not just “oh white people get shinier toys,” but it’s a systemic preferential treatment that has been rooted in our country since...literally the beginning.
White privilege is the expectation of success, both social and financial, because you are white, while a Black person has to suffer in order to experience success...and if they do experience success, it's because they are the exception, not the rule. In terms of the here and the now, in the wake of George Floyd’s death, white privilege has reared its ugly head in response to looting and riots. White people get more upset about stores getting burned and trashed, rather than getting upset about people being murdered.
White privilege can be extremely small and even internal -- such as prejudicial biases based on appearances. But some cases of white privilege are so blatantly, OUT THERE that it’s comical to even try to deny it. White privilege is when you can claim that you don’t see race just to make yourself more comfortable. White privilege is condemning Colin Kaepernick for kneeling during the national anthem -- and burning Nike shoes in response -- but getting upset when Target gets looted in protest of murder.
White privilege is when a white woman lies and accuses a Black man of rape, without proper evidence, and destroys that mans’ college dreams...while that white woman is not punished. Or when Brock Turner, a white man, only serves 3 months for raping and sodomizing Chanel Miller behind a dumpster, because of the “severe impact” that his *own* actions would have on his future.
White privilege is the fact that a white man can shoot up a Black church, or a movie theater, or a school, and walk away living in handcuffs, while a Black man is killed in his car for reaching for his glove compartment, for driving in the wrong neighborhood, or for going on a run.
BRI: First, thank you for the disclaimer: I’ll speak for myself and say I am certainly far from an expert on either of these topics and this conversation will hopefully serve as an intro and inspire all of us writers and readers alike to learn more about both.
You’re right that it's a bit of a moving target in terms of what white privilege is and what it means to different white folks. Certainly, it must be easier for the white billionaire to recognize her white privilege than it is for the white person living paycheck to paycheck who doesn’t feel all that ‘privileged.’ I think a lot of people get hung up on a definition that is more akin to class privilege - and in some cases that is an element - but white privilege is solely about the privilege, and yes in our society it is a privilege, of being born white. I think a lot of white people who push back against the term feel like it devalues them, their accomplishments, what they’ve worked for etc. So I’ve been racking my brain on ways to approach that conversation with white people in my life who are resistant to accept and own their privilege. Madison, do you have any thoughts on why the pushback is so strong? I actually feel like when you walk someone through some examples they’re more likely to be like ohhhhh yeah I totally have that!
MADISON: Another point I want to make before I answer your question is this: I have personally experienced a lot of privilege, but none of that privilege has stemmed from the color of my skin. I have so many different examples that are zipping through my mind, so bear with me.
I’m going to give an example that a lot of people might be able to relate to: finding a job. When anyone looks for a job, especially right out of college, there are the typical nerves surrounding qualifications, GPA, references etc. Let’s say for this example, we’re talking about a very traditionally corporate job. And also for this example, I’m going to use two women. As a white woman, you have to make sure your outfit is appropriate -- not too suggestive -- and that you’re able to prove yourself in an interview. Now imagine, as a Black woman, you have to make sure your nails aren’t “outlandish,” that your hair is “natural,” but only the “right” type of natural, that you talk, “like a white person,” as if to insinuate that whiteness equates having proper grammar and an extensive vocabulary. All of these things are instantly charged onto a Black woman BEFORE stepping into an interview room. While a white woman has the privilege to worry about the interview itself, Black men and women are open to targeted racial biases before being given the chance to speak -- even if they have the proper qualifications for a particular job.
Now, how does this white privilege tie into systemic racism? Stay with me now. Let’s say for this example that these two women have GPAs that are lower than average for this particular job application -- we’ll say it’s a 3.0 flat. The white woman has no extracurricular activities, but explains that she spent a lot of time working on herself in college, and found that spending time with professors learning material was beneficial for her. This white woman has parents who were able to pay for her college without extra help. Throughout the interview, she carries herself well and answers questions thoughtfully. The employer will probably give this woman the benefit of the doubt about her qualifications because of the way she is presented in front of them.
But let’s say the Black woman, who also has a 3.0, had a full-time job during college to pay off some of her own student loans to alleviate stress from her parents. However, she feels that she can’t explain that to the employers for fear of a “sob story,” but it’s a valid reason for not having perfect grades. On top of a full-time job she participated in only one extracurricular club, because she was passionate about it. However, an employer might have their own racial biases that distracts them from noticing that this woman also presents well and answers questions thoughtfully, because they are able to discredit her interview because of her lack of on-paper qualifications.
This is an example of where the system disproportionately impacts the Black woman more than the white woman, because of underlying and nuanced realities regarding generational wealth and educational opportunities for Black and Brown women.
That’s an example that can have a lot of different moving parts in it, but I think it’s a very contained example of how white privilege can operate.
BRI: That is a great example. I think oftentimes the response from white people is something like “Oh so you’re saying I only got this job because I’m white!? Are you saying as a woman I can’t be upset that I have to make sure my clothes aren’t ‘too provocative!?’ Are you saying that *continues to yell in white rage*.” Okay okay calm down, Karen nobody fucking said that! The whole point of recognizing your white privilege is to recognize the societal hurdles like the ones Madison laid out above that are standing between people of color and the finish line that are not in between you and the finish line. By recognizing the privilege, we white people can work on getting rid of the biases that cause these hurdles to be there in the first place. As we educate a generation of future CEOs, hiring managers, HR rep, etc. it's important to expunge these biases so that we don’t continue to have a system that is racially biased.
MADISON: White privilege makes me think a lot about white fragility. There’s a great book that has been recommended to me titled, haha, “White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Race.” I need to read this book, but I have a lot of white friends who have told me that it’s hard for them to have discussions about race. And because it's hard for them to talk about race white people expect for Black and Brown people to adopt a certain type of special consideration when discussing race or difficult topics with them. Because white people hold the power in systems that perpetuate racist behavior, having conversations that could shake up the status quo is intimidating to them, and causes them to react defensively.
And under that pressure, a lot of white people fall back on old defensive "Karen-esque" behaviors to point blame like crying or asserting that their micro-aggressions aren't racist. I think overall white privilege is the ability to ignore things in order to make life easier and more digestible. And what about in your experiences? How have your friends and family reacted to riots and looting in a way that might be like…alright, check your privilege at the door please?
BRI: First off, I think you made a great point about the “Karen-esque behavior” being a place of blame within the white community. This is something I have been talking about a lot lately and I just did exactly what I said we should NOT be doing! Even in my example there I was putting the blame on someone other than myself. I was saying it's all these crazy white people not the “good” white people like myself. But the reality is I’m playing just as much of a role in all this as any other white person because when I walk into a job interview I don’t think about much other than ‘fuck, I hope there are no typos in that cover letter.’ Yet, my example was someone who’s taking an extreme anti-white privilege stance. Instead of that I should have looked at my own thoughts and behavior. As a person with white privilege I need to hold myself accountable and stop putting myself on a pedestal above the ‘Karens’ of the world just because I’m liberal and gay and ‘woke’ because none of those things will ever rid me of the white privilege that I benefit from every single day. So thank you for pointing that out.
For your comment about “shaking up the status quo” it made me think of a piece we both recently read and re-read called “A Case for Reparations” by Ta-Nehisi Coates (which everyone should read) when he says,
“Black nationalists have always perceived something unmentionable about America that integrationists dare not acknowledge—that white supremacy is not merely the work of hotheaded demagogues, or a matter of false consciousness, but a force so fundamental to America that it is difficult to imagine the country without it.”
The reason it is so hard for white people to let go of racial biases and have these kinds of conversations is because white supremacy is a systemic part of our society and it is impossible to see the country as we know it without it. And to get to your question about the riots - a lot of white people I know are taken aback at the topic of defunding the police. Police Departments as we know them today were founded as a way to catch runaway slaves and to lock up black men and women and use them for free prison labor. The militarized police as we know them today play a significant part in systemic racism. Because systemic racism is so ingrained and is in many ways essential to the capitalist country we live in, it's nearly impossible to imagine doing it any other way.
The family and friends I have talked to are genuinely making an effort to learn more and to push ourselves when the instinct might be “well they shouldn’t be looting” or “peaceful protests work better” to think okay well have any of us EVER had to protest something on our own behalf? Should we be the ones to tell people of color how they should and shouldn't be protesting? And I think because we are having these kinds of discussions daily our collective understanding has grown a lot. We of course have a long way to go, but the constant news coverage is pushing us to have conversations we probably wouldn’t be having otherwise. And I’m forcing them to read with me so we are having these kinds of conversations a lot right now.
MADISON: I think that it’s great that your family and friends are willing to have conversations. My own circles have had more conversations more than ever before. Some people are genuinely shocked at what they find when they start asking questions and learning about the history of racism and Black communities, and how embedded it is into everything. “A Case for Reparations,” does a really good job of contextualizing and supporting claims with indisputable evidence. As you read the article, you realize how much white privilege on the individual level and systemic racism on a national level is directly intertwined and how one can’t survive without the other. And on a basic level, Coates talks about housing. I won’t get into all of the specifics, because that’s what the article does so well, but one quote that I thought was so poignant was:
“His journey from peonage to full citizenship seemed near-complete. Only one item was missing—a home, that final badge of entry into the sacred order of the American middle class…”
In a sense, it’s almost silly to think about how “American,” a home is. We’ve all heard it before, a house with a white picket fence and a fresh lawn. But in reading Coates’ article and understanding the devastating impacts of redlining, it has been re-affirmed that white privilege has established a country in which white people are meant to flourish at the expense of Black and Brown people. And because of that white privilege, white families have been able to generate stable wealth that trickles down with each generation, while Black people experience several other extenuating disadvantages that prevent them from even getting into an interview room. Okay. So, we get it. White people are given proportionate advantage over Black and Brown people because of their skin color. A lot of people are just like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“What do you want me to do about it?” “I can’t help that I’m a white person.” “Just because I’m white doesn’t mean I’m racist.”
Obviously no one can help that they’re born White, Black, Brown, rainbow, green, I don’t even care -- but everyone has been taught that America is this amazing, can-do-no-wrong country that never, ever has to deal with the repercussions of its actions. And if we’re not going to do it on a national level by passing legislation and supporting reform bills and asking for reparations, then on an individual basis people need to understand how their privilege has elevated them over others. So then my next question to you is: how do you plan to use your own white privilege, Bri? You operate in an interesting space in my opinion, because you’ve been raised in a deeply Southern place, where a lot of these ideas about reckoning with history are a sensitive source of pride, but you’ve also been able to challenge some of that history and break out against conformity. So how do you think other white people can use their white privilege for good without getting defensive and falling back on white fragility?
BRI: I’ve straddled a line most of my life of living in the south around a lot of people who rep the confederate flag like it's the newest Lilly Pulitzer print, but also being raised in a relatively liberal open-minded household. I’m prefacing with that because I want to make the point that my nuclear family and particularly the people I’m around right now my ideas about white privilege and defunding the police are not all that radical. In the greater social scene around me that is not necessarily the case. So I kind of see it as a two sided thing. On the one hand, within my nuclear family I have been able to have these really tough conversations because the people around me are willing to have them. So if you are in that kind of environment I urge you to really push yourself and those around you to read more, learn more, listen more, and talk more with each other. Just because you are aware of your white privilege and are ‘on the right side of justice’ doesn’t mean your job is done. We are all embarking on a lifelong journey of untangling the knots of racial biases and systemic racism in ourselves and in our country so it's really important to think of ways you can be actively making a difference every single day. You don’t have to go change the world every day, but changing the way you talk and think and pushing yourself to have hard conversations with yourself and with other white people is something you can do constantly.
For those who find themselves surrounded with more ‘conservative’ minded white people I understand that these conversations are a lot more difficult to have. It is the job of white people to lead the conversations with white people who are not in support to try to get them to think differently. It’s not going to happen overnight - your uncle Dan isn’t going to change his Facebook profile picture from MAGA to BLM overnight. There are a lot of people who are not in support of BLM and do not want to see themselves as racist - they just don’t understand that it’s not possible to do both of those things at the same time. It’s important to get an understanding of where they are in terms of their knowledge on the situation and approach the conversation at that point so that you can work alongside them to learn together and bring them up to speed. I know the conversations can be frustrating, but for us as people with white privilege, that is all it is - a frustrating conversation. Part of our job as white people in this fight for racial equality is to bear the burden of the conversations with other white people because we have the privilege of it only being a conversation, and a conversation that does not threaten our livelihood or self worth.
MADISON: I think you make really good points. Speaking from a different perspective, white people need to also realize that some Black and Brown people might not want to have a conversation with you. And that’s completely fine and valid, too. Just because white people find themselves privy to new information (that’s not new at all) doesn’t mean that everyone is going to want to sing and have play dates and do each other’s nails. Yesterday I was having an open discussion in a team environment, and we came to this point in the conversation where it’s like...well what can I do? And someone had a challenge. She challenged all of us to think about HOW we think about Black people… I’ll play that back for you one more time:
What do you think about what you think about Black people?
I mean, it was really freaking moving. Even as a Black and Native American woman, I have struggled with my own identity as a Black woman because of what society has told me, what my experiences have taught me, and how it has made me feel. So then I think...well shit, what does that white person think about me? Those implicit biases have been beaten into our brains, and we don’t even realize it! And it’s gross! But we can definitely check ourselves each day when we think about how we think about anyone.
White privilege is so embedded into this country’s fabric that it’s going to take hella grandmas and hella sewing machines, aka generations of people, to continue calling out racism, continue protesting, and continue fighting for justice, not just equality.
One powerful phrase that has been trending recently is “Foot on the gas” which I think is just so spot on. Some people think that protesting takes a couple of days and *poof* things are better!!! And that’s what I’m so worried about. People are going to forget about Black lives again because it’s not convenient or trendy to think about it anymore. But now is the time, especially with elections coming up this year, when I think people can realize how much power we really can have to keep pushing back against this broken system.
BRI: You bring up a great point that yes, just because this is something we need to be talking about right now does not mean white people need to bombard their black and brown friends with forced conversation. Listen to your friends of color and follow their lead when it comes to conversation. Show your love for them as your friend but understand that this is a whole different event for them than it is for us white people.
The “foot on the gas” mentality is exactly what we need right now. Read, listen, vote, talk, and push yourself and those around you to think about issues that don’t directly affect you. We are nowhere near where we need to be, but it is possible for us to get there. Do you part and keep the pedal to the metal. If you’re looking for some places to start, below is a list of articles/books/shows/movies that the staff here at ‘Our Daily Bread’ highly recommends.
Read:
(PS: Order from a black owned bookstore! Amazon doesn’t need your money right now).
“Such a Fun Age” by Kiley Reid
“Sister Outsider” by Audre Lorde
“The Color Purple” by Alice Walker (Especially during pride month!)
“Behold the Dreamers” by Imbolo Mbue
Listen:
Armchair Expert Podcast with guest Heather McGhee
TedTalk by Heather McGhee
Scene on Radio Podcast "That's Not Us, So We're Clean (Seeing White, Part 6)"
Watch:
13th - Ava DuVernay (Netflix)
Explained (Season 1, Episode Racial Wealth Gap) (Netflix)
XOXO.
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